Curse

Rossaroni · Aug 08, 2005, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Yeah, the monk really needs an overhaul. Hands-down, no other class contributes so much to the success of a group than the monk does. Yes, it's nice to have nukers or tanks in your group, but the monk is the class that needs to be looked at. In Lineage 2, rogues were plagued with this problem (albeit in a bit of a different light). The difference between one monk and two monks in a party is way greater than the difference between, say, one elementalist and two elementalists, or one tank and two tanks, or....and so on.

By the numbers:

Let's compare two basic skills, one for damage dealing, one for damage healing, in order to illustrate how a monk is fundamentally flawed. Flare and Orison of Healing. Each cost 5 energy, each has a 1 second cast time. Flare, however, has no cooldown, while Orison has a cooldown of 2 seconds. Flare, at 12 fire magic, does 40 damage, while Orison heals for 60. So, stacked against each other, after damage reduction from armor, they're about even. Add in energy storage and the flares can outlast the orisons. However, add in divine favor, and the heals heavily outweigh the damage done (12 DF = 38.2 more hp per Orison, bringing it up to nearly 100 per spell).

But what about other spells that do damage on a much larger scale? What about chain lightning? Well, it causes exhaustion, has a 2 second cast time, and a 20 second cool down. Protective spells cast in advance (protective spirit, protective bond, etc.) can also cut into the damage done.

Of course, I guess the real issue here is enchantment removal in high-end PvE areas. In PvP you see it, but not so much in the PvE areas that matter (UW comes to mind). All I've already said aside (read: practically speaking), all that we really need is a few adjustments made to monk enchantments and a few more instances of enchantment removal in the high-end areas. I'm not saying make it mandatory for every monster in UW, just throw in a group or two here and there that'll debuff you a la chilibains or some other method.

DrSLUGFly · Aug 08, 2005, 04:53 AM // 04:53

I do many mission without a monk...

The need for a monk is an insecurity and a safety net for players who think they're not noobs (and then can blame a monk when they die). If people stop relying on monks so much they'll become better players. I seldom die when my team works together and my armor is on par with my level. Simple reason, my survival instinct outweighs my trust in a monk. To be sure monks save me from several close calls but who saved me from the close calls in the many missions I've done without a monk? Nobody but Dwayna (and Grenth or Lyssa depending on my class

).

Desecration Station · Aug 08, 2005, 05:01 AM // 05:01

u have to be kidding me

ManadartheHealer · Aug 08, 2005, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Anyone who thinks monks are essential and/or completely overpowered should be out learning the game instead of making suggestions

Seriously though, the monk would need very minor tweaking if any at all

Akilles · Aug 08, 2005, 05:10 AM // 05:10

i use a monk and i dont have an issue with it, i only feel that 105 monk build is cheap as hell. with runes so expensive only the super rich or the ones who got on early can benefit. I hate to say it but I only hope arenanet makes it to where if you have specific builds and solo that your drops will not yield anywhere near as good as they do now. I have 2 superiors and 2 majors, but i use it to heal and not farm. I could go the 105 route but I dont want to. I just want the exploits to be fixed so it is fair to all. so the 15 year old off for summer plays all day and farms like mad while the workers made a living and cant focus on farming when they play since they want to actually play with what little time they have.

Tater_Knuts · Aug 08, 2005, 05:11 AM // 05:11

I recently started a new character; a Warrior. Coming from playing Rangers & Mesmers, it's been an interesting experience.

My favorite story:

We were pulling small groups from a large field of monsters and finishing them off. Then we accidently pulled 2 groups. The rest of my group was in the middle of a long staircase, and I was at the bottom, completely surrounded by 6 uglies. I fought a pitched battle for what seemed an eternity, and finally they were all dead. The Monk chimes in:

"Dude, I totally saved your ass."

To which I replied:

"I kept them away from YOU, maybe I saved YOUR ass"

It's all about perspective.

My skills, equipment, and strategy are all focused on survival. If you NEED a monk, you need to re-think what you're doing.

Dead Weight · Aug 08, 2005, 05:13 AM // 05:13

I like to take a larger look at what yor trying to do. In the PvE areas I believe the monk is adequately powered as those scenario's can provide opportunities for lots of death. A combo of a good characters is what makes a PvE successful more often than not. Due to the wide ranging skills of potential PUG groups, I'd say that it's fine there.

In regards to PvP, I would say that your numbers are correct, but how often do you see one player target one player? most of the time it's concentrated 3-4 persons at one target. Nerf the monk and those squishes will become even less relevant.

I'm surprised that this argument would be made before asking for spirit balance in the PvP areas. That is a much more far-reaching affect than anything else.

-DW

Storn · Aug 08, 2005, 05:26 AM // 05:26

I primarily play a monk/necro. PvE, not PvP, so this statement is skewed towards that.

And I kinda agree with the statement. Kinda.

but instead of "nerfing" the monk, I think the various Heal abilities of the classes should get bumped just a schootch, a tad... not much... or then the balance will be really lost. It could be less Energy, quicker recharge, not even something like more pts of heal per cast.

I would like to be able to have 2 skills that can contribute in offensive (or disadvantaging the bad guys) manner to the fray. But at 20th lvl, ALL of my skills are very fine-tuned... and I use all of them in keeping an 8 man team alive. When things go well, which they do with good teams, I'm kinda sittign around on my hands, sure my cane does 11-22, but about 2-4 is getting through. Not exactly earth shattering.

Having said all this, I REALLY enjoy playing a monk. I like the responsibility of keeping everyone alive. I love Mending Ailments/conditions allowing Warriors to get up to fighting fit. I love working with good Necros, Rangers and Mesmers most of all. I like one Warrior in my group and the rest 2ndaries.. makes Healing easy. I love running like a chicken with my head cut off when I'm targetted. I feel bad when I hit the wrong skill or someone goes down in mid-heal... but I do my best... and I like the cooperation and communication with others. I"m not the greatest monk, nor do I expect to be... but I love the game. I love the challenge.

Sir Maddox · Aug 08, 2005, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tater_Knuts

My skills, equipment, and strategy are all focused on survival. If you NEED a monk, you need to re-think what you're doing.

I very much agree with this statement.

However, to some degree, Monks/Warriors provide a near necessary aspect in most parties. It is seen in the fact there are both two Warrior and two Monk henchmen. (They know what niche needs filling most)

It is notable though, that Guildwars provides many, many, many opportunities to fill the role of 'Monk' or 'Healer' rather than having a Monk. Just because people choose to overlook them, or not take advantage of them is not a reason to "nerf" a class seen as overpowered.

People give the Monk class the value and necessity, and with some thought and invention can take that necessity away.

OP:

I disagree with your statement that there is a big difference between one and two Monks. I've had groups fail, BECAUSE there was two Monks. People get impatient and let their inhibitions fall when they have two Monks. They think they're invincible. This is also the case with just one Monk. I PREFER to be the only Monk in the group for this reason as well as others.

And you generalize the efficiency of players FAR too much. A lot of players, Monk, Warrior, Elementalist, Ranger, Necromancer, and Mesmer just plain suck. A good Mesmer > than a bad Monk and so on and so forth.

One thing I WOULD possibly suggest to ArenaNet: Perhaps tweak the self-healing of other classes so as not to keystone Healer Monks. (I.E. Ether Feast.)...But then again..I could just be using it wrong. :P

Ristaron · Aug 08, 2005, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Monks are fine how they are. Who cares if every party wants one? Only the good parties who get a bunch of good players (monk included) are the ones that beat the missions (luck aside).
In a war, do you leave doctors behind? No, you need a few in the front lines to make sure the soldiers live to fight the next day. The rest are in camps behind the lines to attend the wounded who can get to the tent.
Any party that goes without a healer needs to know how to play the game. Some groups do, and I applaud them. I have been in a few of these groups.
My monk has also been in great groups that didn't really need him all that much -- and some not so good ones that I knew were doomed after the first fight when nobody declares, nobody makes any effort to keep themselves alive without my help, and nobody listens when I say I need time to regenerate energy before we move on to the next group with even MORE enemies than the last which we wound up losing 5/6 (or 7/8) people (myself being the only remaining survivor who finished off the last enemy then resurrected everyone).

Not suggesting that Guild Wars is like any other games, but any other game remotely like this has it's own monks. FFXI has White Mages, StarCraft has Medics, etc.

I love my monk how he is; when used properly he can do anything well. Tanking, healing, protecting, you name it.

Monks and Necromancers have the ability to be anything they want, the fact that more and more people skilled enough to use them are doing so shouldn't start raising shouts to nerf them. I prefer a couple necromancers over a couple warriors any day (provided the warriors are typical macho-meatheads). But the argument how many warriors are very skilled is better left for another day, or another post at least.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 08, 2005, 05:37 AM // 05:37

So... Uhh... Do these farming monks affect you? I mean... The ones that aren't purposefully assholes?

Are the monsters bitching about them? Cause there's no use for them in PvP...

... So... What's the problem? Seriously. If someone has fun repeating the underworld a hundred thousand times with a build they copied unskillfully off a forum, let them.

octaviancmb · Aug 08, 2005, 05:39 AM // 05:39

So with Divine Favor, Orison beats Flare. If an Elementalist wants to kill a healing monk, all he or she needs do is cast two or three water spells. Comparing any two professions is a game of rock/paper/scissors.

I don't consider it a big deal at all that a certain build of two professions can solo two areas of the UW. You know, there are certain areas of the UW an Elementalist can easily solo,too, they just happen to not be the entry Labyrinth. Should all profession combinations that can solo anything be nerfed? I don't think so.

Just because a particular build is better than yours in a certain circumstance does not mean your build is weak, it doesn't mean a zone needs to be changed, it doesn't mean particularly anything other than certain professions are better at certain things than others.

There are always going to be strong skills in certain circumstances, and thus strong combinations of professions and attributes. Consider the strength of Winter, a skill of marginal utility normally, when combined with an AoE fire Elementalist with some defences against cold in Hell's Precipice. It's just extremely potent. Should fire AoE be nerfed because an El/Ran build can farm Hell's Precipice mobs? Should Necromancer players complain that they don't have any elemental damage to fully benefit from this "design flaw?" Surely not!

Rather than focus on what some other build can do, I find it more interesting to question what my characters' builds can accomplish (both solo and as a member of a toon). Perhaps there's some strange Ether Renewal build that's even better at soloing the UW than the current FotM for solo runs (that skill certainly has the capability of being "broken"). Burn a few dozen plat in experimentation, and post your results. That's the beauty of the game: exploration and experimentation.

In short, I don't think any class really needs to be "nerfed" yet. Some strategies need better counters (for instance, spirits seem rather potent without a reasonable way to counter them, and enchantment removal could use some more versatility), but this hardly means entire professions should be stripped of potency and variety.

Ultimately it's a game of skill. As powerful as the "invicible monk" build is, it does take a certain degree of skill to pull it off: it's not just some random pushing of buttons. Ask any monk who's tried it, and they'll tell you those Darknesses are rough. Just one mistake and it's back to the ToA for you.

Good luck to you in your quest for better balance, though. I believe it's a noble goal the game should strive for.

CMB

Ristaron · Aug 08, 2005, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Consider it this way:

A muscle-man that can lift 500 lbs with ease, and a Mensa member with 300 IQ.
Would you make the tests rediculously hard so the Mensa member would be challenged, while there are normal people writing the same test at the same time in the same place? (If it was a contest and anyone was allowed to enter).
Would you raise the weight to 1,000 lbs so that the muscle-man would be challenged in the weight-lifting competition held open to everybody?

The answer to both of those should be "no".
So why punish a little ingenuity so that someone who can solo ONE area as many times as they desire is cast down?
And even if they got the build from the internet, they still need to practice it a little to get the hang out of the build. And if they want to do the same thing a zillion times for some cash, let them. It doesn't hurt you if you're a PvPer.

Seron Dalar · Aug 08, 2005, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Are you guys idiots? Of course you need monks. You just shouldn't rely on them. Pretty much any class can self-heal, of course, but what's more efficient-- devoting two or three skill slots (sometimes the Elite slot, see Ether Renewal) for every person to self-healing, or having a couple monks do it for the whole party with everyone else fulfilling the role their class is best at?

I did also notice that Monk spells are, pound for pound (or whatever), the best in the game. Hands down. But I figure that's reasonable, since they're the ones keeping people alive, and also for the reason Dead Weight said. If two monks couldn't keep one person alive with six people spiking that person, then we'd all be spikers.

That said, there are enough ways to counter monks that they're not overpowered. Mesmers, necros (Defile Flesh et al.), hydromancers (I'm one, I'd know)... really, most classes can do it.

Grigori Sokolov · Aug 08, 2005, 06:32 AM // 06:32

ok, I dont think anyone has made this point yet, so I will:

Every class has a place in a team. If your team is balanced between healing and damage, then you will go far. As far as PvP goes, Ranger spirits totally mess up monks and so do mesmers. If you know what you're doing and you know what your role is and everyone else on your team does, that is when things work. Ive solo healed FoW. Does that mean monks are overpowered? No! People saw what was going to happen ahead of times and brought class heals and everything came out fine. As far as UW soloing goes, I think that it isnt a problem: its not like you can clear uw or even get far past the first quest solo. I very much dislike the effect on the economy though. That is one thing that needs work (the economy).

Kakumei · Aug 08, 2005, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storn

Having said all this, I REALLY enjoy playing a monk. I like the responsibility of keeping everyone alive. I love Mending Ailments/conditions allowing Warriors to get up to fighting fit. I love working with good Necros, Rangers and Mesmers most of all. I like one Warrior in my group and the rest 2ndaries.. makes Healing easy. I love running like a chicken with my head cut off when I'm targetted. I feel bad when I hit the wrong skill or someone goes down in mid-heal... but I do my best... and I like the cooperation and communication with others. I"m not the greatest monk, nor do I expect to be... but I love the game. I love the challenge.

seconded

thirded

and fourthed

i feel exactly the same in this regard

Makkert · Aug 08, 2005, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

Anyone who thinks monks are essential and/or completely overpowered should be out learning the game instead of making suggestions

Seriously though, the monk would need very minor tweaking if any at all

signed.

and comparing flare with orison shows this. You seriously think an opposing team only has a flare on the damage side? A monk has to keep up with warriordamage, spikedamage, degens etc all in once. so that is why you can't compare flare with orison.